Joel and Monty Neill Look Ahead
Today, we have a guest with us, Monty Neill, Deputy Director of FairTest. So, welcome Monty.
Hi, I’m Joel Packer. Welcome to another podcast. Today, we have a guest with us, Monty Neill, Deputy Director of FairTest. So, welcome Monty.
MONTY NEILL: Thank you.
PACKER: So first tell us a little bit about FairTest and what you do there.
NEILL: Well, I’m the Deputy Director. I work mostly on testing in the public schools. FairTest is an advocacy organization for testing reform. We’re nearly a quarter century old. And we work on issues such as No Child Left Behind and the federal role. We work in states sometimes with NEA affiliates, but other organizations, grassroots groups and others. And we focus there on the state testing programs, high stakes tests for kids and so on. And we also work on college admissions testing. We think that colleges should not mandate that students produce test scores as part of admissions, but make it an option. And we maintain a list of 750 plus colleges which make test scores optional for some or all of their applicants. So we’re an advocacy group. We work with the media. We build alliances with other organizations. We put out policy reports and sometimes do some research.
PACKER: Great. Sounds pretty comprehensive. So in addition to serving as Deputy Director of FairTest, you also Chair the Forum on Educational Accountability or FEA. So, what is that? And what is that coalition doing about No Child Left Behind?
NEILL: FairTest initiated that alliance. Because after NCLB was signed, we believed that unless education groups, civil rights groups, and others got together and defined a better role for the federal government, we would be stuck with NCLB indefinitely. I know it feels indefinite, but it hasn’t really been that yet. And it’s up for reauthorization now. We first put out a statement called the Joint Organizational Statement on No Child Left Behind, signed by a few dozen groups, education and civil rights, that called for major changes in the federal law in the areas of assessment and accountability and support for schools. When we completed that, we realized, well, we have a very good two-page statement. But Congress in the end will write a law. And they’ve got to go from principles all the way to the details of the law. So our next step of the ongoing group, the core group, was to do some reports, one of which is called “Redefining Accountability”. We wrote it ourselves. And we said that in that report, the key areas we’re looking at as we define accountability is that schools and systems should be held accountable for taking reasonable steps to improve schools, such as better professional learning opportunities that are largely under the control of the educators in the school and the system.
Better collaboration with parents and helping parents who have trouble working with their kids at home. Various other steps to actually improve schools. Then schools also ought to be accountable for high quality learning outcomes. But standardized tests are not good measures of high quality learning outcomes. And when you only focus on two subjects, you undermine everything else in the curriculum and the overall quality of schooling. So we said there should be accountability for learning outcomes using a variety of kinds of measures. And then instead of punishment, which NCLB does, where schools need help, you give them help. And so the evidence would be used for help. Since then more recently, we’ve been talking about expanding that a little bit in some areas around some of the funding aspects and the use of resources. And we’ve also done a lot of political work of member organizations taking FEA ideas to Congress, to the legislators and their staff, and to the public, in order to inform people about the kinds of changes we want to make. One other thing. The alliance now also includes a range of religious organizations, twenty or so. There’s disability organizations, other labor organizations, civic groups, parent groups like the PTA. One hundred and forty-four organizations have now signed the original Joint Statement.
PACKER: That’s a pretty impressive list of organizations. And what’s interesting about that is, as you know, there’s been a lot of news stories that at least imply that civil rights groups are on one side of No Child Left Behind and teachers unions are on the other side. And with all the civil rights groups that have signed onto the joint statement, what do you see as the real story about that?
NEILL: Well, part of it was there were some folks with a civil rights history who defend NCLB, who wanted to try to claim that all the [education] groups simply support NCLB -- all the civil rights groups support NCLB. And again, twenty some civil rights groups, NAACP, LULAC, Children’s Defense Fund, very prominent as well as smaller civil rights groups, have signed a joint statement, and signed other statements supporting some of the key ideas in it since then in public. And they want significant changes to the law. They want a strong federal role. And they want accountability. But these are things that FEA also supports. It’s how you do it so that it helps improve the quality of education. So we think that in fact many civil rights groups continue to agree with our positions. In fact, if you look at, for example, the National Urban League, their own positions on NCLB, they talk about overhauling the testing and accountability program, because they don’t view it as helpful. So there is continuing support on many of our, if not all of our, key issues from the majority of the civil rights groups. There are some tensions. And these tensions have been exploited. And there’s certain misinformation. I mean, for example, a claim that somehow we want to end NCLB. Well, it’s true. There are parts of NCLB we want to end because they’re harmful. We, on the other side, think there should be accountability. There needs to be assessment. There needs to be help for schools. There should be a federal role in that. And so we think that there is in fact a useful role for the federal government that civil rights groups want and that FEA supports. And as far as we know, the NEA also supports.
PACKER: So , what’s wrong with looking at test scores?
NEILL: Test scores are part of the mix. The problem with the standardized tests is they don’t measure very much. Not only in NCLB’s case, only reading and math, but within those fields, or standardized tests in history and science. They only measure a limited slice of what kids ought to know and be able to do. They over-emphasize rote learning, memorization and repeating back memorized stuff or routine procedures and downplay everything else. All the kinds of higher order skills that students actually need if they’re going to be successful in jobs, in college and as citizens. And so the tests don’t measure that much. So when the scores come out, they misinform the public. Because you say, oh, the math scores are this. But they don’t tell you a lot about the math that kids actually should know. Then when high stakes are attached to those test scores, the pressure is on for the people in the school, the principals and teachers and everyone else, to focus on what’s tested -- because the teachers’ jobs are at stake. The kids’ futures are at stake. The school’s at stake if you don’t focus on the test. So that means that the curriculum gets narrowed to what’s on the test. But the test isn’t testing much of what’s important. So kids don’t end up getting taught. So, of course, they don’t learn it. But it also undermines the quality of the social relations in the school. It undermines a sense of community. It hinders student engagement in their own learning. All these things that good teachers know are real important for learning, they’re not only not supported, they’re hurt by the over emphasis on standardized tests. Now, we’re not saying no standardized tests. They can produce some useful information. They’re cheap. In fact, that’s the problem. They’re cheap. You get what you pay for. So if you want high quality, you don’t spend cheap. You’ve got to find ... we have to find better ways to assess.
PACKER: You’re not talking about letting schools off the hook. I mean, a lot of the, again, criticisms about NEA and others is, “oh, you just don’t want to hold schools accountable. You don’t really care about improving student learning.” So, how would you respond to those kinds of criticisms?
NEILL: That is an unknowing or deliberate misrepresentation of our position. Our position, certainly as FairTest, and I believe in large part as FEA ... and some of this is beyond what FEA covers. But at FairTest, a lot of our work has been to improve the quality of teaching and learning precisely because we believed it wasn’t good enough.
I mean, for example, teachers don’t get taught how to do assessment well when they go to college. Unless they happen to be in a fairly unusual situation in school, they don’t get that professional development well. So a repertoire of helping kids through assessment develop high order skills is often not very available to teachers. We think that should be improved. We think even before NCLB, too much emphasis on rote learning was hindering the quality of schooling in too many of our schools. Certainly not all of them. And in every school, there’s usually some teachers that do that well and others not well. So we were into education improvement and reform. The problem is that if you define the outcome simply as standardized test scores and then put the pressure onto boost the test scores, you don’t end up producing high quality learning outcomes that need to be there.
So we in fact argue that we’re the ones calling for real genuine improvement in the quality of education, in teaching and learning and expectations. And the other side, out of ignorance or out of limited expectations for poor kids, acts as though all that we need to give them is what they can do to pass a mostly multiple choice standardized test in two subjects. And it won’t cut it.
Now, one other thing. The other part of this that makes it very complex is that this country has failed to adequately fund education for many of its children. Those are typically the same children who don’t get good health care, who live in crisis-ridden communities, who often may not eat enough, who move from school-to-school and home-to-home too often. And this country has a far too large percentage of such people. Unlike countries that do well in say international competitions, like Finland which takes care of its children far better than the United States does. What this country has then done is somehow expect teachers in underfunded schools to make up for everything the rest of society won’t do. So we have to do a complicated dance or balance between expecting schools to get better, helping them to get better, without expecting schools and the teachers to overcome all the effects of poverty. That’s a difficult dance. And people who want a black or white, yes or no, simplistic answer inevitably then say, well, you don’t get it. Or you’re ducking and dodging. We’re not ducking and dodging. We’re very clear we want to improve schools. We’re also clear that you can’t expect schools to do everything that society won’t help them do.
PACKER: So since Congress was supposed to have rewritten the law this year and didn't, what do you see happening, as they call in Congress the reauthorization of No Child Left Behind or the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, in the next Congress? Recognizing it’s going to be somewhat dependent on who the next President of the United States is.
NEILL: It’s going to be very dependent. There are political divisions over this law in both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party. And so it’s a very complicated political situation. I think Congress in the last decade or so has been particularly interested in accountability and not understood how accountability could hurt rather than help education. I think some of them are beginning to understand that and pay more attention to actual education issues now. George Miller, the head of the House Education Committee, the Democratic leader, has basically said that NCLB is something like the most despised brand in the United States. So he says it’s definitely going to get renamed. They rename this law every time they reauthorize it. The question is what’s going to be in it.
And I think there’s fairly certain that there will be the opportunity for states to do much better assessments. There will be financial support for that. The opportunities for teacher professional learning will be strengthened and improved compared to the current law. There will be some form of sanctions I fear will continue. My hope is that they will be put in their proper place, which is schools that are given an opportunity and assistance to improve and still don’t, something stronger should happen. But before that, you provide assistance. And we have a law that doesn’t really do that. I think there’s some recognition that that needs to change. On the other hand, there are some people in Congress who have a simply highly punitive approach and just want to beat up on teachers, poor kids, unions, whoever it may be. And it’s going to be very complicated politics. Frankly, neither candidate for the presidency has been all that clear on these issues. Obama somewhat more so. But neither of them have been real clear.
So I think it’s very up in the air precisely what they would want to do. Which means the future is pretty murky. But what that means is that it’s even more important for people at the grassroots level -- for teachers, for parents, for school board members, administrators, religious folk, on and on -- to get involved, to let their Congress people know that this law must change. Not that you need to provide the details. But send them to, of course, the NEA. But send them to the FEA materials, to FairTest materials, to other positive sources. So say, look at what these folks are saying, and put in a law that meets their requirements. But if local folks don’t act on this, if local folks are not visible through as many means as you can, the result will be we won’t win what we really need to win or as much as we need to win.
PACKER: I’m going to ask you just one last question then, . Since you mentioned people should contact FairTest. So if people want to get more information about FairTest or about FEA, the Forum on Education Accountability, what are the web addresses so people can ...
NEILL: Yeah, the best source is definitely our websites. FairTest is simple. www.fairtest.org. And if you put in FairTest in Google, we usually come up number one. Less well known, but not too complicated, the Forum on Educational Accountability is www.edaccountability.org. You can also do it from FairTest.
PACKER: All one word.
NEILL: All one word. And you can link to that from FairTest. Most of the FEA material is in fact also on the FairTest website. Just kind of easier to find. Because all this other stuff about state testing and college admissions and so on is also on the FairTest website. Whereas, Ed Accountability focuses simply on the FEA materials on NCLB.
PACKER: Well, again, I want to thank for joining us today. We don’t have time to talk about all the other issues that mentioned, state high school exit exams. But there’s a lot of information, as he said, on their website. So thanks for being with us. And again, I’m Joel Packer. And thanks for listening.


: the percentage of schools failing AYP jumped from 58.5 percent to 68.2 percent while the number of schools in restructuring doubled from 84 to 170.
